H
Haggard
Guest
Has anyone learned or accomplished anything from this thread?
Just wondering if I missed something?
Just wondering if I missed something?
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gone_fishin
Guest
what i've learned since starting this topic is that the laws and legislation are still as vague, and we are still as uninformed...and that the number of opinions are equal to (or greater than) the number of responses...
if anything, it's serving to keep us hip to the fact that we have a long way to go to really have some sort of national impact on all this schtuff.
if anything, it's serving to keep us hip to the fact that we have a long way to go to really have some sort of national impact on all this schtuff.
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SirJakesus
Guest
I'm sure the fact that we only use a fraction of the fuel as a car makes even the dirty 2 stokes better for the environment than a car. Think about how many fewer barrels of oil have to be pumped, shipped, refined and spilled in order to operate 50cc engine as opposed to a car. Not to mention gallons of motor oil cars 4 strokes go through in a year. 2 strokes are dirtier for the air, 4 strokes are dirtier for the water and ground. The only way to get away from pollution is to kill the human race... personally i'd rather pollute and learn how to deal with the consequences.
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OldPete
Guest
You say you're an engineer dax?
Reread this http://www.greenermiami.com/greenermiami/2006/08/back_in_may_the.html and redo the math. Older scooters put out more pollution than current SUVs according to their testing. These cheap Chinese 2 smokers are terrible polluters...Period! I realize they are a source of income for you but they are junk. Fun junk but still junk.
4 stroke oil vs 2 stroke oil? What a laugh. 2 smoker oil is partially burnt then sent out a non-CAT muffler on these HT engines. 4 stroke oil should be sent to the recycling pick-up, like at Autozone. Sheesh!
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SirJakesus
Guest
Most old motor oil is burned for heat or electricity. Theres no way around the fact that whatever an engine consumes it has to end up somewhere in some form or another. We might as well just make the argument to get rid of gasoline engines altogether because they're all dirty. Ebikes however can be made and run clean throughout their life with battery recycling and renewable energy.
loquin
Well-Known Member
I agree. IF we want to make some sort of impact, we CAN'T hide our heads in the sand, believing only what we want to believe. At least, be honest with ourselves and others about the real issues that surround motorized bikes. Ignoring or pooh-poohing them won't make them go away. It will just make us look ignorant.
SirJakesus: the point about the hidden emissions cost of fuel and manufacturing was addressed in my post above. The total additional emissions for an auto are about 25% higher because of the 'hidden' costs of obtaining raw materials and constructing autos, and for drilling/refining/transport of gasoline. Unfortunately, even with a clean-burning two-stroke like the mistubishi, (as well as ALL the small 4-strokes) which pump out about half of the CARB II allowable emissions, they STILL put out 2-3 times the emissions per mile than a car is allowed.
There are still lots of positives surrounding MBs. (low costs, low fuel usage, fun to ride, etc.) but low emissions is NOT one of the advantages.
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loquin
Well-Known Member
Sorry Dax. That's NOT how the math works.
The caldera atop Mt. St. Helen's was a little less than a mile in diameter. If you laid out a round grill, one mile in diameter (the equivalent of about 11 million grills,) covered it an inch thick with burgers and steaks, and cranked up the heat until ALL the meat was turned to dust and blew away in the wind, it would result in a volume equal (at most) to a slab, 1 inch thick by a circle with a diameter of a mile. About 12 millionths of a cubic mile. The Mt. St. Helens eruption tossed several cubic miles of dust into the air. And, that's not counting the gases which forced the mountain to explode.
(Or the fact that a large percentage of meat, by weight, is actually water...)
Dax - I KNOW that you sell the inexpensive Chinese two strokes. That's fine. They're fun to ride around, and fun to play with. Just don't try to cover things up or distort the truth. We can do the math, too.
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loquin
Well-Known Member
Correct. But, when it IS burned, it isn't done so under conditions that exist inside an engine (combustion taking place in a few thousandths of a second) which are condusive to forming nitrous oxides and incomplete combustion. And, in power plants, scrubbers and other pollution controls are applied so that water vapor and carbon dioxide are about the only things released into the air. The sort of controls that are only economically possible with large installations
Yes, eventually, that probably WILL be the way to go, but they're not there yet. The range is insufficient, and batteries are too heavy for anything except a niche market as of now.
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gone_fishin
Guest
Lou said:
that's what i told him on the phone...truthfully, duane takes some of it personally...i can see why, he is pretty dedicated to his market & to the motorsport...but i made it clear none of the discussion is about anyone in particular. i told him this thread is only talk amongst folks who are still trying to figure it all out, & that noone is trying to make him justify his personal or business stance on the matter. to justify my taking this public, dax, i want to make you aware that we are aware of your effort to bring us a "made in the usa" kit that can use a more efficient set of engines
did that make sense?
loquin
Well-Known Member
OldPete - not to toss a monkey wrench into your argument, but the article you reference is flawed. The original, source article is discussing and comparing concentrations of pollutants in the exhaust in percent or PPM - not the grams of emissions per mile. Plus, they are comparing a 1968 2-stroker against a new Suburu. Apples & Oranges, but the other way.
(on a side note, there's a ton of errors in the source article, too - the author didn't know what they were talking about)
(on a side note, there's a ton of errors in the source article, too - the author didn't know what they were talking about)
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