Trouble starting 49mm iron sleeve

[ImpulseRocket]

You know, that is a great idea… I’ve actually done that on other projects ( ie. most recently, filling a hole i drilled in something I shouldn’t have)
Don’t know why it didn’t cross my mind to do that last night. I know some people have used it to stuff cases, even getting creative using it while porting heads. Some question reliability when used in the cylinder but seems there been quite a few cases it seemed to work well.
Anyway thank you the tip, I obviously would have completely forgot otherwise.

I have used it to help flow a case or two, and more recently to correct the roof of an intake port on a "110" iron sleeve engine. The sleeve protruded down into the intake port, but the port timing on the sleeve was perfect and the port itself was actually bad. I filled the roof and shaped it to be even with the sleeve edge and ramped it up. This allowed me to drop the intake port floor and get way better intake timing while reducing a lot of turbulence.

I just don't use a ton of it like I have seen other people. I watched a video not too long ago where a person put two entire packages of JB Weld into a case. The most I have thought about using was to fill in the unused transfer ports on the case side of my Phantom, and to help ramp the case to the bore around the perimeter. I just never got around to it because the motor is more than fine without any of that.

 

[Mc2Stroke]

This is my first time messing with one of the engines, so I don’t know what stock squish gap can be on these I’m sure it varies wildly even with aftermarket heads.

Turns out I had some rosin core 1/8in solder, first I just bent the solder and put it in through the spark plug hole but couldn’t get a reading, so thought maybe, what I think is the solder touching the cylinder wall isn’t... I pulled the head made the semi Omega symbol with extended legs out of the solder and made the test that way.
The solder did not deform at all so squish gap is bigger than an 1/8 in (.125) or almost 3.2mm.
I know some stock dirt bikes can be around 2.7mm roughly.

I’m waiting til it cools down a little to go out and try getting my bike started. I’ll update how that goes soon.

 

[ImpulseRocket]

The solder did not deform at all so squish gap is bigger than an 1/8 in (.125) or almost 3.2mm.
I know some stock dirt bikes can be around 2.7mm roughly.

That wouldn't shock me too much. My 110cc engine as it came had a squish gap of nearly 3mm (2.7). Most of the engines I have had were all around 2mm, give or take half a mm. The head gasket it came with was basically 1mm thick though, so a thinner head gasket alone would shrink that down quite a bit. If your port timing can handle it, one can also eliminate the base gasket to gain about another half a mm.

The "best" way to set the squish gap would be to deck the top of the jug though. It's a tall order to remove a couple mm of metal though without a mill.

 

[Mc2Stroke]

I have used it to help flow a case or two, and more recently to correct the roof of an intake port on a "110" iron sleeve engine. The sleeve protruded down into the intake port, but the port timing on the sleeve was perfect and the port itself was actually bad. I filled the roof and shaped it to be even with the sleeve edge and ramped it up. This allowed me to drop the intake port floor and get way better intake timing while reducing a lot of turbulence.

I just don't use a ton of it like I have seen other people. I watched a video not too long ago where a person put two entire packages of JB Weld into a case. The most I have thought about using was to fill in the unused transfer ports on the case side of my Phantom, and to help ramp the case to the bore around the perimeter. I just never got around to it because the motor is more than fine without any of that.

From my experience with the stuff it’s more than strong enough for the job in most cases. I’m glad it has worked out for you, sounds like you got lucky with the port timing of the sleeve being a little off.
I know exactly what you mean though, the iron sleeve in my engine is a couple millimeters lower than all of the ports in the actual head.
I have not done a port map or any work with the degree wheel yet as I just wanted to see how it ran stock and mess with all that later.

I had not given much thought to what to use in the event I had to fill anything but it’s good to know good old JBweld works. I’m assuming any high strength epoxy will be ok possibly even that low/ mid temp brazing rod (alumiweld) had crossed my mind, more as an experiment if I ever have an extra head to play with.

They do say if it’s not broke don’t fix it… but if you ever run out of other projects or get bored and just have an itch that phantom case will be there waiting.
I have seen some videos of pretty wild stuff done with jbweld too, There’s a video of a kid that filled in his whole exhaust port to report it and make it a bridged design

 

[Mc2Stroke]

That wouldn't shock me too much. My 110cc engine as it came had a squish gap of nearly 3mm (2.7). Most of the engines I have had were all around 2mm, give or take half a mm. The head gasket it came with was basically 1mm thick though, so a thinner head gasket alone would shrink that down quite a bit. If your port timing can handle it, one can also eliminate the base gasket to gain about another half a mm.

The "best" way to set the squish gap would be to deck the top of the jug though. It's a tall order to remove a couple mm of metal though without a mill.

Alright well, just another few things on the to do list.
The stock head gasket and even the one in the gasket set I got are at least 1mm thick so to start ill get a thinner one, was looking at the copper ones, don’t recall if they said how thick they were.

 

[Mc2Stroke]

EDIT TO THE ORIGINAL POST:

I GOT IT RUNNING!!!!
I didn’t bother to put the stock exhaust on, when I really thought about it an exhaust isn’t going to make it run much different than how it was. (Barely at all) especially after spending time going through smaller / bigger jets and needle positions if it was that exhaust I would have found the correct tuning. There was something off and that wasn’t it.

Well taking the engine off and apart paid off… I got the spark plug fully seated and screwing in smoothly although in hind sight I don’t think that had any cause in it not running. The fuel/ oil seepage in the head and base gaskets as well as intake gasket were a big clue and after filing the intake surface flat and making sure the jug gasket surface were cleaned and there was no damage to the gaskets then I got everything got torqued correctly.
The moment of truth…Now it ran but opposite of before it only started with the choke closed so I put a #65jet in it and moved the needle to the middle it was a lot better but still needed some adjustments.

It is now running and idling with a #70 jet and the needle still in the middle.
There is a very slight studder while accelerating, could be the crap wire nut connections for the ignition that I will now come up with something more permanent.
Possibly a weak cdi as mine was at the low end of good when I tested it.
Or maybe the spark plug, I am running the stock one as of now.
What is a good spark plug gap for these engines?
It is currently at about .018” or so because my gap tool, starts at .020” and it won’t go over that.

 

[DAMIEN1307]

What is a good spark plug gap for these engines?

NGK-BR6HS gapped at minumum .025 thousandths.

 

[ImpulseRocket]

.025 works fine. If you want to be wild and crazy (or you have a good coil) you can go a touch bigger, but it doesn't really make much difference performance wise, and can risk harder starts and small running issues.

 

[Axl Myk]

It is now running and idling with a #70 jet and the needle still in the middle.
There is a very slight studder while accelerating, could be the crap wire nut connections for the ignition that I will now come up with something more permanent.
Possibly a weak cdi as mine was at the low end of good when I tested it.
Or maybe the spark plug, I am running the stock one as of now.
What is a good spark plug gap for these engines?
It is currently at about .018” or so because my gap tool, starts at .020” and it won’t go over that.

That slight stutter while accelerating could be the needle position. Raise it 1 notch.
You see, the needle kinda acts like the accelerator pump in an auto carburetor. It's like it gives a little squirt of fuel with throttle.
Normal plug gap is .025". Get rid of the stock plug. Everybody here recommends an NGK B6HS or BR6HS, for most conditions. Auto parts store or a marina should have them.

 

[Mc2Stroke]

NGK-BR6HS gapped at minumum .025 thousandths.

.025 works fine. If you want to be wild and crazy (or you have a good coil) you can go a touch bigger, but it doesn't really make much difference performance wise, and can risk harder starts and small running issues.

I’ll try gapping the stock z4c and NGK br5hs I have to .025 they’re both at around .018 now/ out of the box. I’ll probably keep the stock plug in til I can get a good read on the plug then switch to the ngk I have and see how it looks eventually and whether or not I need to change to a different heat range.
I generally like running a slightly warmer day plug depending on what the engine is happy with.

I may play with the jetting a little more and see if I can get it running a bit smoother.

That slight stutter while accelerating could be the needle position. Raise it 1 notch.
You see, the needle kinda acts like the accelerator pump in an auto carburetor. It's like it gives a little squirt of fuel with throttle.
Normal plug gap is .025". Get rid of the stock plug. Everybody here recommends an NGK B6HS or BR6HS, for most conditions. Auto parts store or a marina should have them.

If I noticed the stuttering again I will keep that in mind. I was planning to adjust the jetting some more anyway.
I actually just got back in from a short ride though, and the stutter is alot less noticeable after gapping the stock z4c spark plug earlier this morning from .018 to .024 while comparing it to the BR5HS I have because I was curious what heat range it was ( seems it’s about a 7 by NGK standards)
I chose the warmer side of “the middle range” as I’ve always preferred/ had good experiences with a warmer plug. In the case of this engine it seems my instincts paid off, after reading the spark plug, it seems I need a warmer plug and the BR5HS should be just right. I will see when I eventually run/ read it.
I will probably stick with the stock plug for the rest of this first tank of gas.

One thing I noticed is the stock spark plug has a shorter reach than the NGK which protrudes a past the threads into the combustion chamber.
To my knowledge the the spark plug threads should be flush with the female threads of the head, not protruding or recessed…
NGK’s spark plug chart says H plugs are 12.7mm reach L plugs are 11.2mm reach which after checking the z4c is closer to the correct length. I have not looked extensively but it seems there is a NGK B5L B6L etc. that should have the correct thread reach which are pretty standard copper core/ nickel electrode. Don’t know if there is a resistor version.