The AC Induction Motor Ebike Project

[safe]

Hasn't this all been debated before on another site Safe?

Ideally I want to sell the bike "commercially"... so I need to obey.

For homebuilt rides you can modify and probably even sell them if you can claim to not be "in business" doing it. The line of when you cross from being a "private citizen" to a "businessman" is probably fuzzy, but at some point it's going to happen. Even for the homebuilt rides you still need to pass your local laws, so you still are going to get busted eventually unless you are very careful.

All my efforts have this background of "potential product" to them.

Why?

I don't know... it's just nice to think that there might be some larger purpose than just fiddling around with ebikes on my own. (though in the end if nothing ever comes from it that's all that really happened)

Person-to-person sale is the underground "black market".

The Federal Law only applies to anyone who builds and sells ebikes as a business. I would want to be professional if I did this and so that means obeying the laws.

For me it's "pro" or "no".

 

[AussieJester]

I realise YOU have to if you ever get your bikes commercially produced but you CONTINUALLY preach that everyone else has too this is NOT CORRECT you need to stop doing it you will get people into trouble if their state laws require lower than 750watt ratings ...

People MUST CHECK Their LOCAL STATE LAWS.


If nothing comes of EBRR so be it YOU always have the bike too hoon around on does it really matter if it doesnt take off Safe? suure you wont make big dollars but you still have a nice ride to 'play' ojn so IMHO nothing is really lost your just like every other ebiker out there with exception yours is alot faster than most ...
I have nothing against you developing the EBRR i have as others do issues of you constantly spamming it in threads other than your own. I personally like your bike i think its a great piece of work. I also think it could be a **** of alot better and i dont think AS motors are the way to do it atm you need light high hp motors, your bike screams for an RC setup at the very least a nice brushless motor. I forsee you will waste the whole winter fart assing around with this thread get very little done and be back using brushed Unite Motors next summer. Stop talking about it so much and actually DO something. Copying and pasting information/graphs from the internet on the thread got old after 3 pages IMO...Bite the bullet get a brush less cyclone motor Safe, you will have less headaches than trying to do what your doing now, you don't have the machinery or money needed to develop a light weight AC motor for e-bike use.

KiM

 

[safe]

...you will get people into trouble if their state laws require lower than 750watt ratings

To my knowledge there is no state that allows ebikes that has a lower limit than 750 watts.

(name one that is lower)

I've been clear that states often have more generous laws than the Federal one. My state allows 3 hp for example.

The AC Induction motor could be sold as 1 hp, 2 hp or more and you can set the maximum speed with a frequency limiter very easily. If there is a really strong demand for "moped class" ebikes (like my old bike) then I'd sell to that marketplace.

The main idea is that the AC Induction motor, because of the way it behaves, is better suited to the "fixed power" requirements. On the power-to-weight ratio argument the PM motors have been argued to be better and that might well be true. However, in a sense we "don't care" what a motor is capable of if it's forced into a power limit. What good is a 5K peaky powered PM motor if the market needs a 1K "flat" AC motor?

I mean I love my peaky powerband ebike with it's 6 speed transmission and all, but the idea of being able to get the job done with a one speed is pretty interesting. You just can't do much with PM motors and one speeds without raising the power levels above the legal limits.

---------------------------------

The PM motor has been "done".

What more can I do with it? Just go brushless? I'd rather devote my time to doing something harder rather than repeat the same stuff, just with different (more expensive) parts. I've learned a lot about AC Induction motors in the last months... so it's been good if for no other reason that I got an education.

I still have my old brushed motor (MY1016Z3) so if the AC Induction motor never gets together then I can always use it. Not much power, it's probably only delivering about 600 watts of real power.

---------------------------------

http://www.electricstar.org/inventors.html

"Various states have passed their own laws. California law states that no driver's license, license plate, nor insurance is required. You must be 16 years or older and wear a standard bicycle helmet. Electric bikes are subject to all the rules of the road. Additional laws governing the operation of electric bicycles may be extended by state or local governments. It is therefore legally a bicycle, so you can use it wherever and however you can use a bike. Washington law is similar.

Federal law overrides all States' laws. That is also true with bicycle law. States cannot constitutionally pass legislation that reduce or eliminate Federal law -- they can only pass legislation that enacts additional (tighter) restrictions on its people. Therefore, no State can enact legislation that allows wattages or speeds greater than the Federal Government's limit of 750 Watts and a top electric-powered speed of 20MPH. States can only legislate LOWER wattages and top-speeds (which, to our knowledge has not been done by any state)."

So when states allow higher limits it's not as an "ebike" but as a "moped". All the higher power limits are actually moped laws and NOT ebike laws. My state doesn't even have an ebike law only the moped law.

Many states require mopeds to be licensed... so if you do jump up a class to moped you might have to pay for it.

 

[AussieJester]

To my knowledge there is no state that allows ebikes that has a lower limit than 750 watts.

(name one that is lower)

Ill do you better than that New York city illegal to ride power assisted bicycle. So if a New Yorker came here saw your constant 750watt ramblings he would be miss informed... Hawaii same deal...

I've been clear that states often have more generous laws than the Federal one. My state allows 3 hp for example.

If i had the time I could quote more than a dozen threads where you have spouted the Federal 750watt law as gospel Safe ...

Your time...i stand by my statement, you will fart *** around all winter again get next to nothing done then grumble all summer you have to use a brushed motor as we hear all the same issues over again why brushed motors are inferior and a new better alternative must be found... Your wheels of motion move oh so veeeeery sloooooow Safe, much talk not much action.

KiM

 

[safe]

Don't worry about my rate of progress. Things will get done when they get done.

Again... about the laws...

If you want to get a moped classification (like I have) then you are able to use things like 50cc motors and up to three horsepower in some areas.

For the ebike classification (which is the Federal Law) you need the 750 watts, pedals and 20 mph limit.

You are confusing "ebike" and "moped". Most everyone here on this forum is in the "moped" category... very few are true ebikes.

In Australia it looks like your laws merge ebikes and mopeds into one category and then place a 200 watt restriction on all of it. We don't do that !!!

However...

...it does make me think that maybe a moped class of EBRR would be a good idea. Something like a Formula 2K or even a Formula 5K would spice things up enough to make the gas powered machines and the electric machines more comparable.

Seems that people would be more attracted to higher power limit racing anyway.

Might have to change the name to:

EMRR - "Electric Moped Road Racing"

...at 5K the pedals will just be silly. (pedal power only 10% of total)

 

[AussieJester]

Don't worry about my rate of progress. Things will get done when they get done.

I think you have mistaken my comment, i dont care when or even IF its done, simply stating what i think will happen.

Australia has no law for mopeds Safe end of story, they aren't grouped together as you say. You must have a LICENSE to ride a motorcycle under 50cc if it it exceeds 200watt. It must be licensed and insured.

Seems that people would be more attracted to higher power limit racing anyway.

Might have to change the name to:

EMRR - "Electric Moped Road Racing"

...at 5K the pedals will just be silly. (pedal power only 10% of total)

NOW your getting too something people will have more interest in... Go Kart trackes around the country already are used for Super Motard type racing and pocket bike racings nothing too prevent people on electric bikes upto say 5-10hp or what ever ( a weight limit would also be a good idea all racing classes have this along with HP limits...) ...im guessing many will change their tune if you open up the limits, as you say this could also include ICE against leckies (LoL soz Arceeguy) not that there would be alot of point racing the two together the ICE would get smashed .perhaps separate classes though? 49cc stock ICE 49cc Modified ICE motors...i guess you could also have 2-4stroke classes. Either way, raising the limit from 750watt is a good idea IMHO, NO you wont qualify for mass production of the bikes Safe they will have to comply with Federal Laws you could always get around this couldnt you, hows this, sell the bike as a PEDAL ONLY bike with all fittings etc to mount your motor! then its upto the owner to buy the motor and install it EVERYTHING could be in kit form but nothing assembled, you think this would qualify? Rolling chassis one product...motor kits another product...etc etc

KiM

 

[safe]

Not That Hard...

Let's say there are two racing classes:

Formula 1K (1000 watts input, ~750 watts output, ~1 hp)

Formula 2K (2000 watts input, ~1500 watts output, ~2 hp)

...you design the bike so that it is capable of the full 2000 watt input, but you then go about restricting it through the controller so that it "behaves" as a 1000 watt input bike when required.

The configurations might include:

1000 watts input, ~750 watts output, ~1 hp, 20 mph (Federal Law legal, 96% of the US)

1000 watts input, ~750 watts output, ~1 hp, 30 mph (Moped legal in most states)

2000 watts input, ~1500 watts output, ~2 hp, 30 mph (Moped legal in just a few states)

2000 watts input, ~1500 watts output, ~2 hp, No limit (Racetrack and in some states "tolerated")

...it still makes sense to maintain some limits because that makes racing more fun. (makes it closer) Also, 2 hp with electric is what my old bike has and that's fast enough to pull 45+ mph on the flat. It's not necessary to go faster than that in this "junior" racing class. The "big boys" race motorcycles... these are classes that need to be okay for 12-16 year old kids, so some limits are still a good idea. (we don't want kids getting seriously hurt)

This is in essence the whole reason for the AC Induction motor project. You can more easily set behavior patterns with AC Induction motors than you can with permanent magnet motors that are fixed in behavior by the magnets.

The "big idea" is to be flexible in the design.

-----------------------------------------

For the Formula 5K class you have so much power that pedals are a joke. So maybe you in essence create what was the same as the old 50cc GP road racing class. 5K is about 5 hp, so that's:

http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/simul/HPV_Simul.asp

Peak velocity = 79.561 mph or 128.041 kph

...using stock values. This is about the same as the old 50cc GP class.

------------------------------------------

Above 5K and you are clearly past the moped area and into the motorcycles and at that point the Go Kart track is not going to be big enough and the bikes will need to be stronger and heavier and all the things that you need for motorcycles start to become mandatory. So above 5K and it's not something to design for. (and actually 2K is probably a smarter upper limit)

 

[safe]

Gearing A Problem

The more I think about the gearing the more frustrating it is becoming.

In the case of the unrestricted "racetrack" bike it makes perfect sense to have the pedal power be optimized for low end torque (0-10 mph) and then let the motor take over at 10 mph and stretch things all the way past 40 mph on to "whatever" downhill.

However, for the Federal Law legal bike there is a speed limiting mechanism that needs to kick in when the motor gets to 20 mph and beyond that the motor cannot assist. The problem with the racetrack designed bike is that there is no way to add power up top with the pedals... and you wouldn't even want to anyway... because above 20 mph you need to start to worry about aerodynamics more than anything.

With the Federal Law legal bike the motor needs to freewheel... that's the only way to get the "Gravity Bike" experience on a downhill. You might be limited to 750 watts while climbing some big twisted road, but you are free to hit 50-60 mph on the downhill sections if the aerodynamics are good enough. (and you don't catch the eye of the local police)

So I'm going to have to think about some sort of freewheel... it kind of rules out regen. Regen might be possible if you control when the motor freewheeled and when it didn't, but I have a hard time imagining how you might do it dynamically. (I was thinking of a single chain direct drive, but that might not be the right idea)

As always... the more you think about this stuff the more complex it gets.

 

[luka69]

Hi Safe.
I find it very interesting following this thread ie(The AC Induction Motor Ebike Project).
I hope you do continue to share what your learning with us. If only some of the other members would just keep on the original topic "I" at least could follow what i think is an interesting read (rather than pages of childish non-constructive put-downs)
Yes, theres more than one way to power an Ebike and so far, this approach for me at least, is interesting (even if its only to find out what is or isn't possible at this time)
Luka Australia

 

[AussieJester]

When you have dealt with Safe for as long as i have you will understand more why things are like they are, its not as cut and dry as you seem to think it is...

TIP: dont believe EVERYTHING you read ...

KiM

p.s welcome to the forum...